Milk - Good or Bad?

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Milk - Good or Bad?

Postby Michele on Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:57 pm

I keep reading about how bad milk is for you and I have to admit, I am on the fence about it.

I have watched the video link on other threads saying milk is bad. I heard what they had to say but I found some of it misleading (drinking milk will give you scurvy because it contains no vitamin C - not true because no on uses milk as their only food source). I saw a few misleading things in the video that made me question the presenters credibility.

I saw the below article and thought I would share.
http://healthandfitness.sympatico.msn.ca/Does+Milk+Do+Your+Body+Good/Fitness/ContentPosting_Rodale.aspx?isfa=1&newsitemid=141264&feedname=RODALE-MENHEALTH&show=False&number=0&showbyline=False&subtitle=&detect=&abc=abc&date=False

Now, knowing all of the above, I have cut down on my dairy consumption. I am not really sure which way to go so I choose to find a happy balance. I eat some dairy products (cheese sometimes or cream in my tea) but where I can substitute soy or rice milk, I do.

I suggest you find your happy balance. :)
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Re: Milk - Good or Bad?

Postby Michele on Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:00 pm

Here is the link for the why milk is bad. Again...look at the pros and cons and choose for yourself.

https://ssl.sonic.net/mcdsite/free/DLV03-V04.zip
-=Michele
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Re: Milk - Good or Bad?

Postby photogirl67 on Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:38 pm

Hi Michele

I haven't seen the first link you gave, I will check it out.

As for the Dr McDougall one - I'm not sure how you can watch that and be confused. I saw and it decided no dairy from it. I thought he was clear and had good points.

Are you aware that dairy takes calcium from your bones? Even though it has calcium in it, it is highly acidic which doesn't support your pH goals either. So when you eat dairy, your body has to counter that acid somehow - the most alkaline part of the body is your bones. So your liver will take calcium from your own bones in order to process the dairy foods.

They also cause a lot of mucus which hinders digestion. I personally always have sinus problems when I eat dairy.

What about the bovine diseases? Never mind mad cow - how about bovine aids and leukemia in something like 80% of the North American herds? You know that your milk is from 1000's of cows too, not just one or one farm? So chances of it containing those diseases is pretty much 100%. No thanks.

As for milk and dairy being the perfect food - yes RAW stuff, but it is illegal in this country so good luck getting that unless you buy a cow.

Rob you got any others to help her with her dilemma?
Darlene - coach@bestbodycleanse.com
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heaviest 137 lbs (was a lot my 5'0" frame, size 10-11)
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Re: Milk - Good or Bad?

Postby photogirl67 on Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:49 pm

my comments on the guy's article

1 - who is he and how is he an expert? what are his credentials? Doesn't even give a name of who wrote it or website for them.

2 - what sources is he quoting for the research? all the best including Dr McDougall and Dr Fuhrman always quote the source of the research so you can validate it. This has no sources, I wouldn't trust it.

3 - he talks about milk building muscle and burning fat - I have NEVER heard that before anywhere, Rob? There are also a lot better things to eat that do both those things.

4 - hormones and antibiotics - may or may not transmit to humans. You wanna take that chance? Chickens get all that stuff too to make them lay 150% more eggs than chickens 50 years ago did - is that normal? is that healthy? for us or the animals?

so why then is the average rate that females go through puberty down to under 10 years old and it used to be like 14 or 15. I read an article where young girls as young at 5 and 6 were growing breasts. You wonder why cases of breast cancer and ovarian and uterine cancer are all up? Connection - who knows? I don't wanna find out.

Same reason why I don't use my microwave at all any more. It may or may not be harmful, but when I have other methods at my disposal - other choices to make instead of convenience - I will choose those that for sure aren't harmful and avoid taking the risk.

you decide - does that help?
Darlene - coach@bestbodycleanse.com
http://www.bestbodycleanse.com

heaviest 137 lbs (was a lot my 5'0" frame, size 10-11)
most fat 38%?
current 105 lbs - body fat 22%
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Re: Milk - Good or Bad?

Postby Rob on Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:54 pm

without getting into the facts about how bad milk is, except for these few

1. It's pasteurized - which means it's completely dead. enzymes are what create life. Enzymes are heat sensitive. Heating a food (as in pasteurization) to kill all the bad things, kills all the good things too. Milk does not support life once pasteurized and even baby cows won't drink pasteurized milk

2. It's mucous forming - which means that the body creates a layer of mucous to protect itself from the irritants in milk. This mucous also lines the intestinal tract so that no other nutrition makes it way inside the body either (or at least limits it greatly)

3. Calcium - the calcium in it is designed for a cows digestive system, not a human's. Besides humans (and companion animals who are fed by humans), no species drinks milk beyond infancy or drinks the milk of another species. Cow’s milk is suited to the nutritional needs of calves, who have four stomachs and gain hundreds of pounds in a matter of months, sometimes weighing more than 1,000 pounds before they are 2 years old

4. Health Improves After Removal Of Dairy - A U.K. study showed that people who suffered from irregular heartbeats, asthma, headaches, fatigue, and digestive problems “showed marked and often complete improvements in their health after cutting milk from their diets.” source: The Independent June 2003

5. Contaminants - Synthetic hormones such as recombinant bovine growth hormone (rBGH) are commonly used in dairy cows to increase the production of milk. Because the cows are producing quantities of milk nature never intended, the end result is mastitis (see point 6), or inflammation of the mammary glands. The treatment requires the use of antibiotics, and traces of these and hormones have been found in samples of milk and other dairy products. Pesticides and other drugs are also frequent contaminants of dairy products.

antibiotics in milk can contribute to candida and we both know how much fun that is to have and to get rid of

6. Most Milk Contains "Pus" - Painful inflammation of the mammary glands, or mastitis, is common among cows raised for their milk and is one of dairy farms’ most frequently cited reasons for sending cows to slaughter. There are about 150 bacteria that can cause the disease, one of which is E. coli. Symptoms are not always visible, so milk’s somatic cell count (SCC) is checked to determine whether the milk is infected. Somatic cells include white blood cells and skin cells that are normally shed from the lining of the udder. As in humans, white blood cells—also known as “pus”—are produced as a means of combating infection. The SCC of healthy milk is below 100,000 cells per milliliter; however, the dairy-products industry is allowed to combine milk from the teats of all the cows in a herd in order to arrive at a “bulk tank” somatic cell count (BTSCC); milk with a maximum BTSCC of 750,000 cells per milliliter is allowed to be sold. A BTSCC of 700,000 or more generally indicates that two-thirds of the cows in the herd are suffering from udder infections
sources: Helen Pearson, “Udder Suicide, E. Coli Kill Off Milk-Making Mammary Cells,” Nature 6 Aug. 2001.
National Mastitis Council, “Guidelines on Normal and Abnormal Raw Milk Based on Somatic Cell Counts and Signs of Clinical Mastitis,” 2001.
P.L. Ruegg, “Practical Food Safety Interventions for Dairy Production,” Journal of Dairy Science 86 (2003): E1-E9.

7. More Calcium and Protein Myths - Although American women consume tremendous amounts of calcium, their rates of osteoporosis are among the highest in the world. Conversely, Chinese people consume half as much calcium (most of it from plant sources) and have very low incidence of the bone disease. Medical studies indicate that rather than preventing the disease, milk may actually increase women’s risk of getting osteoporosis. A Harvard Nurses’ Study of more than 77,000 women ages 34 to 59 found that those who consumed two or more glasses of milk per day had higher risks of broken hips and arms than those who drank one glass or less per day. T. Colin Campbell, professor of nutritional biochemistry at Cornell University, said, “The association between the intake of animal protein and fracture rates appears to be as strong as that between cigarette smoking and lung cancer.”

8. Diabetes - Researchers in 1992 found that a specific dairy protein sparks an auto-immune reaction, which is believed to be what destroys the insulin-producing cells of the pancreas.
source: Karjalainen J, Martin JM, Knip M, et al. A bovine albumin peptide as a possible trigger of insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus. N Engl J Med 1992;327:302-7.

9. Children - Milk proteins, milk sugar, fat, and saturated fat in dairy products may pose health risks for children and lead to the development of chronic diseases such as obesity, diabetes, and formation of athersclerotic plaques that can lead to heart disease.

The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that infants below one year of age not be given whole cow’s milk, as iron deficiency is more likely on a dairy-rich diet. Cow’s milk products are very low in iron. If they become a major part of one’s diet, iron deficiency is more likely. Colic is an additional concern with milk consumption. One out of every five babies suffers from colic. Pediatricians learned long ago that cows’ milk was often the reason. We now know that breastfeeding mothers can have colicky babies if the mothers are consuming cow’s milk. The cows’ antibodies can pass through the mother’s bloodstream into her breast milk and to the baby. Additionally, food allergies appear to be common results of milk consumption, particularly in children. A recent study also linked cow’s milk consumption to chronic constipation in children. Researchers suggest that milk consumption resulted in perianal sores and severe pain on defecation, leading to constipation.

and without asking the question "what independent information, not sponsored by the dairy industry or facts quoted by research done by the dairy industry shows milk to be beneficial in any way?"

I'd simply continue with what I've always said about milk.

1. Don't believe anything I say about it, but rather do your own research and learn the "other side" of dairy, based on research done by people not being paid by the dairy industry and

2. Do the "No Dairy Test" for yourself. Agree that you should be able to continue living without dairy for at least 6 months and then eliminate dairy for that time. See what changes you notice and then add dairy back in and see what you notice (if you choose to).

It's about being responsible for your own health. Taking responsibility means listening to both sides of the argument and then doing your own tests.

I have a friend who was my day driver when I was at 400+ pounds. He saw me run out of the house, down the stairs and into the cab one day. He told me later that this stunned him. He decided to read the book that I was reading and gave up milk himself. His life long stomach pain ended the day he quit drinking milk. This led him to look into it some more which then anchored his decision to stay off it. He's not had stomach pain since.

Great question by the way, thanks for putting it forth. As far as I'm concerned, there will always be people FOR dairy and people AGAINST dairy. When it comes down to it, even if the facts show it's beneficial, you choose not to deny what the dairy farmers put the cows through to get the milk. At that point, it becomes an ethical choice (as well as financial).
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Re: Milk - Good or Bad?

Postby Michele on Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:04 pm

Just to clarify, I am not really having a dilemma. I am pretty comfortable with the dairy food balance in my diet. I started this thread because the more verbal people on this forum are anti-dairy – and I get a very all or nothing feeling when dairy is addressed (like don't bring up dairy unless you want to have a to defend it to the death). I started this thread to possibly give dairy a more balanced representation on this forum.

I don’t trust the video (https://ssl.sonic.net/mcdsite/free/DLV03-V04.zip) as it is HEAVILY biased. He starts out with the headline “Got Milk? Got Disease?”. I don’t like it when people tell me what to think. I will tell them what I think – I ask them to just present the facts and I am not convinced he is doing that.

He takes every quality of milk and talks negatively about it. One is high calorie. Then tries to claim that because of this, it can/will lead to diabetes, cancer, obesity, and heart disease. I ask…what does this have to do with milk? Any food that is high calorie can lead to diabetes, cancer, obesity and heart disease.

He says that milk is high in protein and that is bad. How is that bad? Yes I get that makes it acidic but then should we avoid all foods that have protein or are acidic?

Then he describes that high protein diets are hard on the kidneys and kidney patients are told to go on low-protein diets (hence stay off of milk). Well, if you are on a low-protein diet then you should avoid all high protein foods – but why is this milks problem? If you are told to avoid all green foods because of some health condition, does that make broccoli bad and everyone should avoid it?

And his logic goes on like that.

Some of his claims show study info but he makes a lot of claims with no study info shown. Why show study info for some and not all? He makes claims like “everybody knows this”, “all pediatricians know this” and “studies have been done” to convince the listener that he is right so don’t question it.

Then, in the 24th minute of the video, he compares the dairy industry to the tobacco industry. I mean, COME ON! And I quote from the video when discussing milk and tobacco, “and the consequences I am trying to share with you are very similar.” So having a kid light up a cigarette and giving them a glass of milk are one in the same? But if you are not really analyzing what he is saying, you walk away thinking milk is bad just like tobacco. This doctor is not stupid, he is very good at the art of persuasion.

He admits himself that he has hated milk since he was a child.

He talks about 65 kids that were constipated and by removing milk, 44 of them stopped being constipated. Well, is it possible that 44 out of the 65 have some sort of problem with milk so of course removing it would solve the problem? That doesn’t make milk bad for everyone…just those 44 kids. What about the 1000’s of kids that drink milk and aren’t constipated? But he doesn’t talk about that (of course). So, if you are not paying close attention to what he is saying, you walk away thinking milk is bad when really he has not proven his point.

I am allergic to most liquid soap (I get hives)…meaning my body doesn’t process this item the same as other people process this item. So does that mean we should ban liquid soap? That liquid soap must be harmful and we must keep the children away from it because it is painful? How about we keep the children away from liquid soap that are allergic to liquid soap.

Then he makes claims that he has seen in his practice lots of constipated kids in pain and this is because of milk. Then he moves on to something else…I say, “Hang on a minute, how do you know milk was the cause? What study was done?” Then he lays the guilt on the parents saying the child is suffering.

If these study’s that have been done say that milk causes cancer, then why is it such a big secret? If this is true then yes, the dairy industry doesn’t want you to know but these studies are done by non-dairy institutions. I guess there could be 2 trains of thought: (1) there is a conspiracy to hide this secret (and I say that seriously as it would not be the first time the public has been lied to to make a buck). (2) there is a flaw in the study or the study can not conclusively prove it one way or the other.

He makes some good points but there is way too much BS in the video to trust the over all message.
---------------------
Are you aware that dairy takes calcium from your bones? Even though it has calcium in it, it is highly acidic which doesn't support your pH goals either. So when you eat dairy, your body has to counter that acid somehow - the most alkaline part of the body is your bones. So your liver will take calcium from your own bones in order to process the dairy foods.

Wouldn’t this happen when eating anything acidic? Not just milk? So should we avoid all acidic food?

so why then is the average rate that females go through puberty down to under 10 years old and it used to be like 14 or 15. I read an article where young girls as young at 5 and 6 were growing breasts. You wonder why cases of breast cancer and ovarian and uterine cancer are all up? Connection - who knows? I don't wanna find out.
Could be environmental contaminates…it could be a lot of things. It could be milk but why does it have to be milk?

Causing mucus could totally be true. I know I have been eating/drinking milk for all of my life and really cut down in the last 6 months and have not noticed a difference but maybe it has not been long enough…or maybe my body reacts differently…not sure.

Milk does not support life once pasteurized

I have never heard that before…can you provide a source?
--------------------------
The source: The Independent June 2003 also states the following:

"Milk is very good for you - if you can tolerate it - but if you choose not to, it can do you a lot of harm, and this hasn't been recognised,"

"We're not saying milk is bad for everybody - it's a tremendous product. I take a lot of it because I'm okay."
----------------
Rob, you were once against steam distilled water and now you are for it. As we learn more, we change what we believe is right for us. A friend of mine is adamant that steam distilled is terrible for the human body. He can find info supporting his side and I can find info supporting mine. Again, it comes down to doing your own testing (as I noticed a positive change in my body when I switched to steam distilled) and that is what I am suggesting to who ever is reading this (as I believe you are as well).

I am not trying to claim that milk is the perfect food and is faultless. And there are some good points that have caught my attention and have led me to consume less dairy incase it is true. There are also some points that I don't agree with as I see holes in the logic. Do what is right for you…not what is right for someone else.

It is beddy-bye time for me. Way passed my bed time. It is hard to read inflection sometimes so I want to say the above is said for discussion purposes - no ill will intended. Nighty-nite to all dairy and non-dairy eaters alike! :D
-=Michele
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Re: Milk - Good or Bad?

Postby photogirl67 on Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:42 pm

Michele

Good debate, all in the light of education and making choices - all good.

1 - high calorie, have you read Dr Furhman's book Eat to Live? He has a formula I love. It is:

H = N/C - which means, Health is directly proportional to the amount of nutrients in the food, divided by the calories. So if a food is high nutrient dense and low calorie, it will give +Health. If a food is low in nutrients and high in calories then the overall it provides negative health. It's a great book, I recommend reading it. He explains a lot about why our society is overweight but actually under nourished.

2 - high protein - another book to read is The China Study by Colin T Campbell (Rob mentioned his name, he's a university researcher and has done 100's of studies himself) He was a beef cattle farmer, went to college to learn how to grow better beef to feed people and in the course of his studies he found direct links between eating a high animal protein diet and cancer. This is across 1000s of people and dozens of countries. He also has tones of stats linking dairy consumption to higher osteoporosis rates (countries that drink less have lower osteoporosis rates than those that consume more dairy). So he set out to prove meat/dairy was good for you and he was shocked by his own results.

His results were protein specifically from animal products. Protein from plant sources didn't have the same results/issues. There is also much debate on how much protein we actually need. Some say 30%, I've heard as low as 10%. Again, do your research and do what feels right in your body.

3 - dairy/tobacco industry comparison. I know it seems far fetched but they have the same campaign. Tobacco targeted kids years ago, and so does the dairy industry. They aim to get kids believing that milk is a must have for your lifetime - who wouldn't want lifetime consumers? But is that right? Should we not let those kids make their own decisions? This is why they took prayer out of the schools - to let kids have the freedom to choose religion. But yet milk is promoted in schools. I know of some schools that provide a hot lunch program and actually fed the kids KFC and pizza. Is that healthy? What are we teaching them? Do we wonder why child obesity is so high?

Did you know that the old Canada Food guide was created in Germany in the 40s or 50s and was heavily funded by the cattle and dairy associations. We have blindly followed that for years - why? Is it right? Is it best for us? Has the health of Canadians improved since the 50s? doubt it - we have more diabetes, cancer and heart disease than ever. We have been programmed from birth that "milk does a body good" - but it is advertising. We get to choose what to believe. So what he's saying about being the same at the tobacco industry in that respect is true. In the end it is just a product and it's being advertised. Doesn't mean it's accurate or right, we have to do our research.

As for the consequences - I've read something about what the child eats in the first 10 years of life contributes more to whether they will get cancer later in life than any other factors. So - is milk as dangerous as tobacco - who can say. http://www.drfuhrman.com/children/default.aspx You said that Dr McDougall is good at persuasion - how about the milk adds? Isn't that persuasion too? Isn't all advertising just that?

4 - constipation. Well is 66% of kids were cured of it after stopping eating dairy - that's a high percentage. That's not 10% that's 66%! When you get rates that high it isn't a coincidence.

5 - calcium and avoiding all acidic foods - um yes actually. If we ate only alkaline foods as Dr Fuhrman talks about in Eat to Live, we cannot be ill. Disease cannot live in an alkaline environment. The more acidic food we eat, the harder our liver has to work. Acidity is one of the biggest factors to illness. Lemons BTW are not acid forming inside the body - but processed lemonade with sugar is. By moving to more whole/live foods it is better/healthier for our bodies. there are some good articles on here:
http://www.myliveearth.net/articles.php ... 5d027f8241

6 - puberty age - could be milk, might not be. But as I said, why take the chance when we don't need to have it, and can get what milk offers from other foods?

7 - pasteurizing - I found this interesting article http://www.realmilk.com/rawvpasteur.html

found these too - haven't read them all yet
http://www.mercola.com/2003/mar/29/pasteurized_milk.htm
http://www.karlloren.com/aajonus/p15.htm
http://chetday.com/ismilkgoodforyou.htm - Rob likes this guy
Darlene - coach@bestbodycleanse.com
http://www.bestbodycleanse.com

heaviest 137 lbs (was a lot my 5'0" frame, size 10-11)
most fat 38%?
current 105 lbs - body fat 22%
goal - tone more, hit 15%, maintain optimal weight
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Re: Milk - Good or Bad?

Postby Rob on Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:02 pm

Michele wrote:
Are you aware that dairy takes calcium from your bones? Even though it has calcium in it, it is highly acidic which doesn't support your pH goals either. So when you eat dairy, your body has to counter that acid somehow - the most alkaline part of the body is your bones. So your liver will take calcium from your own bones in order to process the dairy foods.

Wouldn’t this happen when eating anything acidic? Not just milk? So should we avoid all acidic food?


Yep

Milk does not support life once pasteurized

Michele wrote:I have never heard that before…can you provide a source?


not at the moment, but I'll have a look around during my research for my book
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Re: Milk - Good or Bad?

Postby Michele on Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:54 am

I will post a longer response next week as I am gone this weekend.

Just a quick question...I thought we were supposed to eat some acidic food because if your body is too alkaline, you don't absorb nutrients?
-=Michele
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Re: Milk - Good or Bad?

Postby photogirl67 on Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:27 pm

hmm, I haven't heard that. Do you have a source?

I think that so much of what we eat is acidic there isn't much danger of being TOO alkaline. Things that are acid forming in the body include:

- coffee
- meat
- bread
- pasta
- flour
- bottled and frozen juices
- pop
- alcohol
- dairy foods
- sugar
- chocolate
- condiments/sauces
- some grains (only slightly)
- some fruits (surprisingly not lemons but blueberries)
- all processed/packaged foods
Darlene - coach@bestbodycleanse.com
http://www.bestbodycleanse.com

heaviest 137 lbs (was a lot my 5'0" frame, size 10-11)
most fat 38%?
current 105 lbs - body fat 22%
goal - tone more, hit 15%, maintain optimal weight
User avatar
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Posts: 993
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:34 pm
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